Mayor leaves after argument

Kamloops Mayor Reid Hamer-Jackson first refused to recuse himself from council chambers after being warned about a conflict of interest, then he left city hall entirely — and didn’t return for the rest of the meeting.

Hamer-Jackson left Tuesday’s council meeting about 30 minutes after it began after an intense back-and-forth with Maria Mazzotta, the city’s corporate officer, who stepped in when discussions turned to a shelter proposed for a Tranquille Road site — a property owned by local developer Joshua Knaak, who the mayor has sued for defamation.

Mazzotta told Castanet Kamloops the mayor has previously declared a conflict of interest on matters related to Knaak. In such situations, there is a legislated process elected officials must follow to ensure they don’t get the municipality into legal trouble.

She said Hamer-Jackson was told about this in an email the day before Tuesday’s council meeting.

“He has already declared a conflict of interest in relation to ARPA,” she said, referring to Knaak’s business. “Once someone does that, they are actually prohibited from participating. It's no longer their choice to, 'Oh, I was [in conflict] last meeting, oh I'm not this meeting.’

“Until and unless they get legal advice that states that they're no longer in a conflict of interest, they are prohibited from participating on matters relating to that conflict.”

Mazzotta said that requirement is enshrined in B.C.'s Community Charter.

“It exposes the corporation to risk to have somebody participating if they're in a conflict of interest,” she said.

“If they've told us they're in a conflict of interest, and they come back and say, ‘No, I'm not anymore,’ we need to see evidence of that.”

‘I will be carrying on’

Hamer-Jackson was presiding over Tuesday’s council meeting as chair when the public inquiries portion began.

When the first speaker indicated he would be talking about the Tranquille Road shelter, Mazzotta raised her hand to speak to the mayor, asking if he had a chance to read the email she sent about his conflict of interest on the matter.

“Yeah, I’m not in conflict,” Hamer-Jackson replied.

“I’m going to tell you something — just because somebody accuses you of something, just because somebody accuses something does not mean you're in conflict, right? So I made up my mind. I made up my mind that I will be involved in this.”

Hamer-Jackson is suing Knaak for defamation, claiming Knaak accused the mayor of groping his wife at a downtown bar.

Because of the lawsuit, Hamer-Jackson previously asked council to delay making a decision on a rezoning application allowing a daycare expansion for another property tied to Knaak. When that failed, he recused himself from the vote over a conflict of interest.

“At that time, I recused myself. But giving it further thought, just because of somebody accuses you of defamation or accused you being a bully or a racist, or they accuse you of being a sexual predator or anything like that, does not mean that that's a fact. So I will wait ‘til that proceeds and I will be carrying on,” Hamer-Jackson told Mazzotta. “Thank you very much.”

Mazzotta told Hamer-Jackson it wasn't about the accusations, and the Community Charter prohibits him from participating in any aspect of discussion related to Knaak unless he receives legal advice stating he’s no longer in the conflict he previously declared.

“When you receive that legal advice, you have an obligation to state on the record A, that you have it, and B, your rationale for remaining. If you do not do so, you are prohibited from remaining in this room according to the Community Charter,” she said.

Coun. Dale Bass, deputy mayor for the month of November, moved to recess the meeting so Hamer-Jackson could obtain legal advice, while Hamer-Jackson tried to tell the councillor she was “out of order.”

Back-and-forth at podium

Meanwhile, the group of men standing the podium waiting to discuss the shelter cut in. One of them said he didn't want to discuss the matter if the mayor wasn't there.

“Are we talking about the city, or are we talking about personal opinion?” One of the men said. “What does my comments have to do with his conflict?”

Mazzotta tried to tell the men that they would be able to speak to the shelter matter later, while Hamer-Jackson told Mazzotta that he thought she would “have to take me to court over this.”

“You’re not protecting anybody here,” the mayor told the corporate officer.

“That’s your opinion,” Mazzotta said.

“That’s your opinion, too,” the man at the podium shot back at Mazzotta.

“My job is to protect the corporation,” Mazzotta said.

The mayor suggested council postpone discussing the shelter because it involves Knaak, similar to his proposal last month about the daycare rezoning application.

Hamer-Jackson continued arguing with Mazzotta and then Coun. Katie Neustaeter, reiterating that the citizens voted for him and he could represent himself, but he then left the room. Neustaeter apologized to members of the public that the exchange was “part of your experience.”

'Continues to ignore proper governance’

Council resumed minutes after Hamer-Jackson left, with Bass chairing.

Hamer-Jackson confirmed to Castanet Kamloops by a text message that he had left city hall and wouldn’t be returning for the rest of the meeting.

“Administration is overstepping their boundaries, I believe,” he said.

Bass told Castanet Kamloops the mayor missed the point Mazzotta was trying to make.

"It has nothing to do with the fact that he that he claims there were statements made about him. It has everything to do with the fact that he's declared a conflict of interest with Josh Knaak already, and the charter is clear — once you declare a conflict of interest, if you want to change that, you've got to come back with a legal opinion,” Bass said.

“He's not a lawyer, which is why I moved for a recess so he could contact a lawyer — his lawyer, if he has one — and get that comment so that it could be complied with as per the charter. But the mayor continues to ignore proper governance when it suits his purpose.”

Bass said she understands if members of the community were confused about why the mayor was being asked to leave as the Community Charter legislation isn’t well known.

“It was unfortunate that it came to this — but we follow proper governance,” she said, adding Mazzotta knows the law.

“Our corporate officer knows what she's doing, I’m not sure our mayor does. Our corporate officer has been doing this a long time. She knows the rules, she tells him the rules. He argues.”

This is the second time Hamer-Jackson has absconded from a public council meeting he was supposed to have chaired. On Dec. 6, 2022, he left city hall after recusing himself from a discussion involving ASK Wellness, with which he was involved in a dispute.