Admits to secretly recording

A Kamloops city councillor is shedding new light on an argument he had with the mayor that sparked a police investigation over fears the mayor's office may be bugged.

Coun. Bill Sarai told Castanet Kamloops he surreptitiously recorded a conversation he had with Mayor Reid Hamer-Jackson in January of 2023, a few months after the election that put the rookie mayor and incumbent councillor in city hall.

Hamer-Jackson went to police two months ago with a complaint alleging his office inside city hall was potentially bugged. His concerns stemmed from an audio recording Sarai sent him via text message on Sept. 27.

Sarai sent the mayor the clip and told him he was happy someone had "forwarded" him the audio.

But that is not true — he recorded the clip himself.

Lie prompted confusion

Hamer-Jackson told Castanet Kamloops in October he believed Sarai was suggesting the office was bugged. He said he asked Sarai three times and didn’t get an answer.

In Canada, it is legal to record a conversation as long as one of the parties is aware the recording is being made. That person can be the individual doing the recording.

Mounties confirmed the complaint was received. They said the investigation was closed and no charges were recommended.

Sarai said he co-operated with Mounties and admitted to police he recorded the conversation.

Reached for comment, Hamer-Jackson suggested Sarai "avoided" criminal charges by telling the truth to police, and was critical of Sarai's comments to this news outlet at the time that Hamer-Jackson was "paranoid and delusional" over the recording’s origin.

“It’s so childish,” Hamer-Jackson said.

Argument over duties

In the clip, which Castanet has reviewed, Sarai and Hamer-Jackson can be heard talking about deputy mayor duties. Sarai tells the mayor he should be scheduling those duties a month in advance rather than on short notice.

“You can't throw things at us and then expect us to sort of catch your rebound. If you don't want to go to things — that's fine. Just give us a heads up and we'll cover for you,” Sarai says in the recording.

“You know your problem, Bill? You don’t f---ing listen,” Hamer-Jackson replies.

The argument escalated from there, and Sarai also swore during the interaction. Both men raised their voices.

The argument led to an investigation and report into the mayor’s conduct — the so-called Honcharuk report. It concluded the mayor had been demeaning to staff and advised that his communications with certain staffers be restricted.

Mayor's anger 'didn't help'

Mayor Hamer-Jackson described the argument with Sarai as “completely ridiculous.”

At the time, he said, he had only recently become mayor and was becoming familiar with the role. He said he didn't have much notice himself for many of the duties.

“The whole conversation was a complete embarrassment, and he sits there and is telling me what to do and how I got to do this and he wouldn’t even let me get out what I had to say,” Hamer-Jackson said.

Asked if he thought it was right to reply to Sarai the way he did in the recording, Hamer-Jackson said he “thought it was right at the time.”

“But it didn’t help,” the mayor acknowledged.

'It's changed our whole community'

Hamer-Jackson said the argument with Sarai had a ripple effect for him.

“The bottom line is that’s what sparked the Honcharuk report, which has cost me," he said.

"It’s changed the whole city. It’s changed how we do business, who’s the deputy mayor, who’s the mayor — it’s changed our community."

He said he still wonders why the Honcharuk report was launched into his conduct and not that of Sarai.

While a workplace investigation was sparked by the argument, the third-party investigator was specifically tasked with looking into allegations of “unlawful and/or inappropriate conduct” on the part of the mayor made by four city employees.

The investigator found the mayor was disrespectful or demeaning to three of the four staff members, a finding the mayor has dismissed as “all allegations.”

Asked what he thinks of Sarai’s take on their argument, Hamer-Jackson said he wasn't interested.

“I really don’t care what he thinks," the mayor said. "I’ve never been called a liar more in my life than I have by that little man."

Sarai not proud

The meeting was recorded because of its nature. Sarai said he was intending to ask the mayor to apologize for a perceived insult sent via text message a month earlier.

He said he decided to secretly record audio in case the meeting went “sideways."

“I’m not proud of what I did, but this person brings out the worst of everybody,” Sarai said.

According to Sarai, he decided to send the audio clip to Hamer-Jackson in September after hearing rumours that the mayor was painting him as the aggressor.

Sarai admits he yelled and swore during the meeting but maintains the mayor was to blame for the escalation of tempers — and he said that's why he sent the clip.

“I thought it would back him off from continually lying about who started the yelling,” he said.

Sarai said he kept the recording for protection and lied about its origin to protect himself from retribution. In hindsight, he said he shouldn't have sent the clip to the mayor.

Recording no longer allowed

Kamloops city council brought in a policy prohibiting members of council from recording conversations months after the argument between Sarai and Hamer-Jackson, but it was not in response to that.

The policy was developed when it came to light that the mayor’s wife secretly recorded a conversation he was having over the phone with then-CAO David Trawin.

Sarai said the surreptitious recording is not something he has ever done before.

“This is just the climate that he's [Hamer-Jackson] created, and that was three months in [to the term],” he said. “And if you look at it today, this isn't even an issue. This issue two years in is just a tip of what we're dealing with.”

Sarai did not comment at the time when reached for comment by Castanet in October inquiring about the recording and police investigation.

He said he decided to come forward to share his side of the story now after he was asked fresh questions recently regarding the recording.