McEntee says hatred on the rise as Seanad debates bill

The Seanad is debating the hate crimes bill and has heard arguments in favour and against it.

Minister for Justice Helen McEntee said there had previously been significant consensus for incitement to violence or hatred but this consensus has been lost.

The Minister said the legislation was needed to publicly recognise criminal conduct motivated by hatred.

She recalled comments by Senators that the Bill would get through "in a heartbeat" if incitement to violence was removed, and said she looked forward to that happening.

Senator Ronan Mullen thanked the Minister for taking on board "in part at least" the criticisms of the Bill made in the house.

"If it wasn't for the Seanad, we wouldn’t be in this position, where the Government took on board the serious concerns people had," he said.

He spoke of what he called the problematic definition of gender in the Bill which remains.

"To the extent that the Government has pulled in its horns, that is welcome, but I can only give a partial welcome," said Senator Mullen.

"You have left a strange anomalous, innovative, weird and dangerous definition of gender in this Bill, and I am urging you to change course on that."

Under the Bill, gender is defined as:

(d) "gender" means the gender of a person or the gender which a person expresses as the person’s preferred gender or with which the person identifies and includes transgender and a gender other than those of male and female.

Senator Mullen said while the definition of gender remained in the Bill, "we’re in the same dangerous...same toxic...same irresponsible place we were in."

Senator Barry Ward said the Bill had been discussed and debated to an extraordinary degree.

"There is no lack of discussion on this subject," he said.

Senator Ward said the definition of gender as outlined in the Bill would only relate specifically to actions within the Act if it becomes law.

He said there are many words that have different meanings depending on which Act they refer to.

He said the Bill does not refer to being offensive or taking offense but rather it is about a legal framework to protect people who have been the subject of harassment or crime.

After the Bill passes, it will still be permissible to say something offensive, he added.

Senator Eileen Flynn asked Senator Mullen what rock he had been living under.

She said she would have liked to have seen the Hate Speech part of the Bill remain, but said a good start was half the work.

Senator Flynn said at least two Senators would "talk and talk and talk" about the Bill, despite not having much support compared to the 40,000 Travellers living in the State [who would benefit from the legislation].

Senator Marie Sherlock said she had received so much correspondence about the Bill which still referenced gender.

She said she could not agree with them, saying people who felt they were born in the wrong body needed to be supported.

But she said the Bill did not create a new status or create a gender, but that if someone was the subject of violence because of what or who they are, that is unacceptable.

"We can’t deny the increase in some of the most appalling attacks that have happened particularly over the past 12 months," Senator Sherlock said.

She recalled a young man called Patrick who was beaten up just because of how he looked.

Minister McEntee said she genuinely regretted the removal of significant parts of the Bill, and said they would need to find a way forward in the next Dáil or Seanad, saying there was a greater level of hatred being displayed generally.

She said Ireland was the only country in Europe not to have hate crime legislation.

"We are not going off kilter here," she said.

"If you are under the age of 25 and you are transgender, you are significantly more likely to be attacked."

Ms McEntee said no jurisdiction in the world had defined hatred within their legislation.

She spoke of the impact that hate crime has in dehumanising people and forcing people to hide who they are.

She said she received a call from the mother of someone who was attacked about two weeks ago, and she commiserated with her.

"The idea that that would be one of my two boys in the future...that they would be attacked because of who they are, it’s heartbreaking."

'Explain your own legislation' - McDowell

Speaking on the Bill, Senator Michael McDowell said it is not divisive to ask the Minister for Justice to say what she is talking about with the definition of gender.

"Please explain your own legislation. Justify the proposition.

"I understand that, or with which the person identifies includes transgender. If you stop there, fine, but you go on to say a gender other than those of male and female, in addition to transgender.

"And no explanation has been given to this house as to what you mean."

The Senator said the house was entitled to a straight answer as to whether there are other genders beyond male, female and transgender.

Minster for Justice Helen McEntee then said the Bill is not a gender recognition bill and she would not apologise for wanting to protect people from hatred in our law.

"We are talking about hate crimes, people that are being physically assaulted because of who they are. In terms of gender this is not a back door into anything," she said.

The amended Bill, from which the Minister removed controversial elements concerning hate speech, is now titled the Criminal Justice (Incitmemt to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill.

It passed all stages in the upper house and will now go back to the Dáil for further consideration.