Analyst Is Certain Nintendo Will Win Its Lawsuit Against Palworld Developer

"Nintendo took its time to really build the case"

by · Nintendo Life
Image: Pocketpair

While everyone is patiently awaiting news from Nintendo regarding its upcoming Switch successor, the company made another, undoubtedly more surprising, announcement.

Months after Palworld's release, Nintendo has now filed a patent lawsuit against developer Pocketpair, claiming that Palworld "infringes multiple patent rights". Now, we all know that Nintendo can be utterly ruthless when it comes to protecting its intellectual property and, according to a new interview with games analyst Serkan Toto via 404 Media, the company is almost certainly going to win.

For starters, Toto mentions that Nintendo will have taken its time to build an absolutely air-tight case against Pocketpair, considering any potential counter arguements in order to ensure victory.

"So first of all this lawsuit is filed under Japanese law, so it has nothing to do with the US, nothing to do with the UK or EU law at all. And second point is that I think that Nintendo took its time to really build the case, map everything out, including counter arguments that the other side might bring up in a lawsuit, and how to counter them and make absolutely sure that they think they will win before filing the lawsuit."

He goes on to compare this current case with that of Colopl, a mobile developer known for a game called White Cat Project. Nintendo had made a series of copyright complaints dating as far back as 2016, but when these went unresolved, the company filed a patent lawsuit, eventually succeeding in a settlement of $20 million alongside ongoing licensing fees from Colopl.

A likely scenario, then, is that Nintendo has realised it cannot successfully sue Pocketpair for copyright infringement (i.e. the remarkably similar creature designs), and is therefore opting to focus on potential patent infringements (and for context, Stephen Totilo has posted an example of a patent that might be in the conversation; spoilers, it involves chucking items at creatures to capture them). Toto believes that Nintendo is attempting to "damage [Pocketpair] financially as much as they can" and will be pushing for licensing fees over a total shutdown of Palworld.

"Nintendo, of course, knows that Pocketpair this year made probably hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, and also hundreds of millions dollars in profit. Because Pocketpair is a Japanese team the salaries are not as high as in the US. It's a small team. This is not a AAA game and it's not a very expensive game.

"So I think that the profit margin is probably sky high for Palworld and I think that Nintendo didn't like that one bit and said, look, they're basically stealing our character designs. We cannot do anything about this. So let's screw them with other things, like, again, patents that are very, very technical. The patents are not listed yet, so we don't know which patents. We don't know which patents Nintendo is actually talking about, but I bet with you already today that it's going to be highly, highly technical things."

Not everyone agrees, however. As reported by GamesRadar, business lawyer Richard Hoeg recently posted to social media to state his belief that "Nintendo may be reaching". Now, there are a couple of points to consider here: one is that, as stated by Hoeg himself, this is very much an "initial gut" reaction, and two, we simply don't know which patents are included in the case. Like Toto mentioned, they're likely extremely technical patents that outsiders such as ourselves are not aware of.

It's all very interesting stuff, and we're keen to see how this one plays out. However, the case against Colopl took several years to reach a settlement, so it's likely - especially given Palworld's popularity and exposure since its launch - that we'll be waiting a long time before we see any kind of resolution here. Watch this space.

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What are your thoughts on Nintendo's case against Pocketpair. It's difficult to form much of an opinion without knowing the specifics, isn't it? Regardless, let us know what you think with a comment down below.

[source 404media.co, via x.com, x.com, gamesradar.com]

About Ollie Reynolds

Nintendo Life’s resident horror fanatic, when he’s not knee-deep in Resident Evil and Silent Hill lore, Ollie likes to dive into a good horror book while nursing a lovely cup of tea. He also enjoys long walks and listens to everything from TOOL to Chuck Berry.

Comments 78

The fact they waited so many months is very telling that they did their homework and know they will very likely win.

Uh no not really.
Patents and copyright are two different things.
Gameplay is also way different.
And even tho many creatures "look" like Pokemon, they tweaked it in such a way that they are not identical.
I think Nintendo will lose this one, and trying to scare them off with this. But in front of a judge they will not have much on this.
Or the devs stole some stuff we dont know off.
But based on design only they wont have a case.
But with this i hope gamefreak shizle their pants and do something about their buggy products lately.

At the very least it always seemed like they were deliberately walking the tight line between what they can and can't get away with, if some of the design similarities were anything to go by. If you're going down that path then you've gotta be careful to make sure you're covered legally from all angles as you know the other party is going to be looking carefully for any slip ups.

Couldn't care less about what analysts etc. have to say, this is a lawsuit so it should be disputed in court first and foremost, not elsewhere absolutely including the internet and even more so considering that both actual patent infringement and accusing someone of doing so when they didn't are serious matters - we should just wait to see what both parties will bring to prove their case and the outcome of the lawsuit.
All that said, I can speculate about the aftermath: if Pocketpair has infringed by literally copying Nintendo and/or The Pokémon Company's patents then they're completely in the wrong and will have to pay the consequences as much as I'll be sad for those enjoying Palworld, but on the other hand I certainly hope that Nintendo won't win because certain mechanics are just similar as that would create a really dangerous precedent for the gaming industry!

@JohnnyMind unfortunately there seems to be actual evidence that former PocketPair employee's were told by the CEO to actually rip off Pokémon 😂.

> So I think that the profit margin is probably sky high for Palworld and I think that Nintendo didn't like that one bit and said, look, they're basically stealing our character designs. We cannot do anything about this. So let's screw them with other things, like, again, patents that are very, very technical.

If Nintendo do this — if they weaponize vague patents, the equivalent of lawyer "nukes" in the context of software lawsuits — to get Pocketpair because they can't go after them on copyright grounds, then they will open a pandora's box they will regret severely. Because other massive players in this space, like Sony and Microsoft, can outspend Nintendo into the ground. And Nintendo will have shown them that they're willing to use these, so they will practically force other major players to use patents proactively to avoid being on the receiving end.

This is the lawyer equivalent of firing off the first nuke. Everyone loses. Nintendo included.

I am so disappointed in them.

Didn't temtem involve chucking things at creatures to capture them? Yet nothing was said about that games mechanics or any other creature collecting game. Or is it because those other games didn't sell very well and posed no threat to Pokémon whereas Palworld sold incredibly well and is about to be put onto Playstation consoles.

Don't get me wrong, if there's any patent infringements then Nintendo are in the right to take these guys to court, but they should also be consistent and go after the less popular games as well.

Nintendo uses Patent Infringement.
It's super effective.

Good good.
I want them to win so badly.
Mostly to piss off those on the hate bandwagon.
😘

I find it amusing that people only want Nintendo/TPC to lose just because they don't like them or the recent Pokemon games.

Like that's an petty reason to overlook stuff especially Palworld where most of the creatures are literally 2 Pokemon mixed together.

Either way this is gonna be interesting

Part of me is thinking Nintendo might win as well. After all, they can hire the best lawyers that money can buy. While Pocketpair did rake in a ton of cash with Palworld, they may not necessarily have the funds to retain good lawyers to defend their case, much less drag the case out. My guess is Nintendo is expecting them to eventually fold under the financial pressure, just like every other legal action that they took against a person or entity that violated their copyright or patents.

@Reztobi Wonder how such evidence came out but even if confirmed, did the employee actually do it? Is something literally copied from Pokémon games and covered by patents in the code of Palworld?
Again, these are all serious matters that should be disputed in an actual court, not elsewhere and even less so on the internet.

I hate that Nintendo patents gameplay mechanics to be honest. It's such a dangerous grey area to set legal precedents in.

I played Palworld for a short while, and it's a very blatant Pokémon rip-off. Yes, Nintendo should win this. And they will.

A characters design is one thing but game mechanics should not something a company can lock to itself,

Imagine the damage that will do to game design when some big player can see an indie title think that's a nice game mechanic... we'll have that for ourselves. Imagine the double jump or aim down sights mechanic was patented? and you could stop games unless they pay, ridiculous.

Nintendo doesn't have their charlizard brewing a big inferno this time around that's for sure but they do have a ma-chump to make them concussed and a jigglypooof to put them to sleep but they may summon a Uri Geller to finish them off with sleep talk.

@liljmoore

It's so funny. Equally the people trying to defend an indie studio known for their own scummy practices and blatant use of AI assets in one of their other games.

@EarthboundBenjy It's not a grey area. It's actually the law. And there have been hundereds of game studio's that patented mechanics as well.

@The-Chosen-one Agreed.

@RygelXVIII Excellent point.

Pocketpair could have easily made their designs a little different so that they don‘t look like blatant rip-offs. They chose not to, so if they lose it is well deserved.

I hope Nintendo wins this.

@ThatSneakman
All that sides cares about is sticking it to TPC/Nintendo so they’ll ignore any and all negative things about that studio and its practices and will even go as far as attempting to gaslight people into thinking that it’s all false, you can probably find some of them claiming that the character designs are simply coincidences instead of being blatant knockoffs.

I beleive this is something that has been coming for a long time now. Not just this Palworld case but in general the Nindie developers have all been pushing the boundries for copying any sucessful games. Look how much we get click baited on 'Look at this 'insert game name' style game', they are all pushing the boundries.
And yes I do know that everyone does this to some degree, but I see far too often it coming from this direction. Little to no innovation or creativity, just a marketing department telling them what it needs to be similar to in order to sell well.

@The-Chosen-one ah yes, because you know better than industry analysts and Nintendo/Game Freak who have been building case against them for the past 9 months.

They're just going at PocketPair with absolutely nothing to present to the judge besides Pokemon designs plastered on Twitter 🙄

Chinpokomon!!!!

i feel like users such as @RygelXVIII @JohnnyMind @Agamembar have put things better than i could, for me the concern of this case has nothing to do with palworld or its devs but rather the effects of game mechanic patents on the industry as a whole.

Isn't this fairly similar to the PUBG vs. Fortnite case? Many similar mechanics but ended up working in Epic's favour.

Never played pal world - I'm sure it's a great game in it's own right, and sounds different enough from Pokemon in terms of gameplay.
But I remember thinking that the similarities between the monster designs were too much to reasonably be passed off as 'just inspired by'. If I take any given song and pitch it down it showed it up by 10%, does that count as my own work, or is it just inspired by the original?

The only winners are the lawyers.

If I were a betting man, I would side with Nintendo. Aren’t they undefeated in winning lawsuits? They have a top tier law team and surely a lot more money to fight this than Pocketpair. If I were Nintendo I would go after ongoing royalties vs a flat fee but will see how it all shakes out.

What's next: Digimon, then Temtem, then Monster Hunter and so on?! Serious the darkest joke Nintendo done so far! xD (facepalm)

Welcome to the automated response generator for the Nintendo Life comment section. Due to the increase of repeat articles/comments: we have created a list of common responses, allowing you to copy/paste your comment. Please select from the options below:

1. Nintendo and the Pokémon Company are cruel overlords bent on destroying everything. First Palworld; next our children.
2. Pocketpair is absolute filth that deserves to be pulverized along with anyone who supports them.
3. It’s patent law, not copyright law.

For all other comments, feel free to leave your response below. My personal belief is that we need this whole debacle to be a Splatfest theme.

I can believe it, I think the Gamesradar person is missing the point. You don't need to be the same genre to steal an idea.

A good example is how Warner Bros has the patent on Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system. Shadows of Mordor is Action Adventure.

But you don't need to be an action adventure game to a have a system that tracks and updates various rival characters based on the players actions and interactions with that character. A turn based RPG could potentially infringe the Nemesis system even if the rest of the game isn't like Shadows of Mordor.

In Pokemon's case though an action game could infringe systems in the turn based ones. And I wouldn't be surprised if the infringed patents are from Legends Arceus which is an action game w/ turn based battles, with Pocketpair hating making original systems I wouldn't be surprised if they just copied from Legends when it released.

I think Nintendo will win purely because Pocket Pair constantly steal ideas, concepts and designs. Their previous game Craftopia even has the Bokoblin and Moblin models from BOTW in it.

@SalvorHardin It feels like pseudo anarchy just for the sake of it.

@Dr_Lugae Ripped straight from BOTW?

Idk if this is true so take it with a grain of salt:
Apparently, Colopl was trying to patent the digital controller on their game and force other devs to pay license fee for it so Nintendo went after them.

My gut is telling me that Nintendo will wipe the floor with Pocketpair, at least legally.

The court of public opinion is a different matter though.

I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't have any love for Palworld or Pocketpair (They seem like a creatively bankrupt company to me), so I don't really care what happens to them. On the other hand I don't love that it's a patent that Nintendo are suing them over....that seems kind of shady to me.

I wonder what kind of precedent a win for Nintendo will set.....though I think people saying this is some attempt by Nintendo to make all Pokemon "clones" illegal are being overdramatic. They've never sued Nexomon, TemTem, Coromon, Cassette Beasts etc.

@ThatSneakman Yeah, they got the Palworld treatment but it's pretty blatant:

https://fantasyroleplayinggames.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/craftopia_seamless_world_update_February_2023_goblin_camp.jpg

@Dizzard It's just hyperbole, like if NIntendo were going to rail against monster collectors they could have went after Digimon since Digimon World 2, ontop of Monster Rancher, Robopon, Telefang, etc. back in the late 90s early 2000s. But Nintendo didn't.

More recently they even promoted Yo-Kai watch despite it being their closest competitor up to that point. I think the idea of Nintendo trying to get rid of all Monster collecting games just comes from attempting rationalising Nintendo singling out Palworld without accepting that it's because of Palworld crossing a line the other series didn't.

@Arkay and i want nintendo to lose, not because of the hate bandwagons or because i want pocketpair to win, but because game mechanics should not be copyrighted or patented.
@liljmoore by the same right, there are people that want them to win and start going after other things that have been falsely claimed to be pokemon rip-offs over the years like digimon.
both sides of the arguments over this are filled with a bunch of illogical hate band wagoning... the digimon one is also kinda funny as bandai namco(who holds the rights to digimon) has had a long history of working with ninendo and tcp from games like pokken & new pokemon snap to toys like the cyber pokedex and the eevee tamagotchi. its highly unlikely nintendo will ever go after them for digimon.

@Solomon_Rambling
4. But what about (similar game)?
5. I don't care about (blank) but I do care about (blank)
6. We should coerce Game Freak to do better. It's not bullying, it's just manipulating people to do what I want
7. Yawn. I'm just having fun playing (similar title)
8. I'm looking down on both sides and I feel good about it. Everyone else is backwards
9. I don't have an opinion but here's 2-3 paragraphs anywa
10. I saw Miyamoto kick a dog in the face once so Nintendo is in the wrong. Remember that time Miyamoto kicked a dog in the face? It happened. Honest.

I'll stop now 😛

They will either lose spectacularly or win by <special means> which will make me lose any respect for the company

I can see both sides so I'll just say im neutral.

@Dr_Lugae Everyone who wants Nintendo to lose will deliberately ignore that fact. They think the recently lackluster-ness of Pokemon games is the reason Nintendo is going after them, and because Palworld made a game that appeals to a certain edgy and childish demographic who think the ideal Pokemon game has more violence, more dark themes, and weapons.

Unironically, that's what some people were saying before it's launch on Steam.

But like you said, Pocketpair crossed a line that the other franchises didn't.

@UltimateOtaku91 I don't know for sure but I imagine the main reason is the similarity of the Pal designs to the Pokémon. But they likely can't do anything about that, especially as Palworld is claiming parody, which allows much more leniency with such things. So they've done their homework to see what they can get them on, which will be patents, which are not protected by parody.

And I think that's the reason all the others like Tem Tem, Cassette Beasts etc are not being chased. The creatures in them aren't easily confused for actual, existing Pokémon, even though some try to copy the style they're not taking Meowth, giving it Jigglypuff's colour scheme and hair curl and saying it's entirely new like Palworld is. And even if they were, the adult nature of Palworld is the real issue. Nintendo don't want the not-quite Electabuzz with a gun to be confused with Electabuzz proper. That can be really damaging to their reputation, which they invest a lot in maintaining.

But again, Palworld is sitting safe under parody with all that, so they have had to take a different route. I think this is the same with the mobile games that use obviously copied Pokemon, they all have heavy gambling elements which damage the brand's reputation.

But the details weren't even disclosed to the company that made the game...

@SViper

At least digimon changed the concept and didn’t use a ball

@Itachi2099

Do you even know who Serkan Toto is? Or is just fanboy talks.
So yeah take that with a grain of salt. This guy is known for making "predictions".

Between Palworld and Craftopia, Pocketpair have been poking the bear for a while.

@RygelXVIII
Except that Microsoft and Sony both steal ideas from Nintendo, not the other way around.
Nintendo could use for Shoulder buttons, D-pad, motion controls as the twins copied from Nintendo

Dragon Quest Monsters came first, then Pokemon which borrowed heavily in the designs from DQ Monsters. So this can't be about designs etc, otherwise Enix could sue Nintendo for Pokemon. So it must be the mechanics etc that may have patents, something that DQ Monsters never shared with Pokemon. Should be interesting.

@Spider-Kev Exactly. Now imagine Microsoft uses its significantly larger lawyer budget to sneakily use its incredible amount of software patents against Nintendo. They don't even have to take them out on game design, it could be how the OS works even.

If Nintendo starts technically vague, complex patent software lawsuits, it tells all the other players "we're not afraid to go there", and then it's an arm's race.

And Nintendo can't outspend Microsoft. Or Sony.

I prefer Nintendo's consoles and games to their competitors. I don't want to see them go under. This is why this is such a dangerous case: It hurts everyone, even Nintendo themselves.

Right off the top of my head, I can tell you that starbound also had devices you use to catch monsters and get them to fight for you. You even throw them!!

I think I remember other games doing this as well.

Sounds like nintendo is suddenly getting aggressive, when this device has been ripping them off for years.

I know it goes against the norm but maybe for once wait until we have all the facts before jumping to conclusions. I know…it’s a lot to ask…

I honestly don't care who wins, and I won't be surprised by any outcome. The genre as a whole sucks.

Nintendo is one of many big, multinational corporations that abuses patents.

Reminder: Nintendo is not your friend, and what they're doing to Palworld is no different than when EA's Trip Hawkins bragged about disrupting competitors' business just as a strategy.

Even if you hate Palworld, this move by Nintendo is as evil as Sony raising their prices to cover up the Concord fiasco or the 17 different ways Microsoft has been ***** the bed lately.

EDIT - I spell so good you guys.

@RygelXVIII Very good point, and I agree; I speak out against Nintendo's shadiness a lot but I do NOT want them going under.

@EarthboundBenjy this is literally not even new. Stop acting Nintendo is the only one to do this when Sega, Namco, WB, and EA have also done this as well. It is perfectly legal to patent video game mechanics.

@Emacster yeah we aren’t even sure this is the patent in question Nintendo is going for. I heard another theory that it might also has a patent that Nintendo patented for BOTW/TOTK.

They waited until PocketPair had enough money to sue FOR, before doing it. Had they of sued right away, whatever money they got wouldn't have been very much. Now, because Palworld has generated a lot of profit, they can sue to get some of that money and force PocketPair to pay licensing fees going forward figuring that if Palworld was this lucrative for them, they wouldn't just walk away from it and would be willing to pay Nintendo licensing fees to keep it going.

I'm sure Nintendo planned to hold onto to this even longer, but because of the leaked images of the Switch 2 prototype most likely having some elements of truth despite not being the final design, they needed to change the narrative in a hurry.

Pride goes before the fall, and Nintendo has been a very prideful, arrogant, and greedy company as of late. Apparently the success of the Switch erased whatever humility they might have had from the failure of the Wii U. Now, they think it's sweet and they can bully people around, and drag their feet on the Switch 2 without giving any useful information. I mean seriously. If what the leaks say are true, there is nothing that we don't already know or supposed would be the case worth all this secrecy and subterfuge. Everyone expected a more powerful Switch capable in some form or fashion to run games at 4K60. Apparently, that is what it is. Just announced that damned thing already.

Nintendo, it's time for you to s***, or get off the pot. Seriously.

@Solomon_Rambling Love the hilarious use of satire here.

There is truth to your comment though: this subject has been brought up and rehashed over and over with only slightly different titles and people in the comments just give the same echoed rebuttals over and over ad nauseam. I tire of this subject. Think I'm just going to start ignoring Palworld articles just lIke I do "Switch 2" articles, but at least this comment was a breath of fresh air.

Good on you, Nintendo!

Considering how long it took Nintendo to file this lawsuit, it gives me the impression that they've been assembling their lawyers and forming up a bulletproof argument with every possible comeback to any counter Pocketpair could throw out in front of a judge; Nintendo very clearly understands the value of a brutal legal team and an airtight case considering the Universal lawsuit from 1983 basically helped them shape where they are now. They are definitely ready for this and considering they've potentially spent over half a year moving in the shadows, they are out for blood.

Sometimes it feels like the NintendoLife chat is all "analysts" of their own.

Given we don't even know what patent is at the center of lawsuit, this might as well be a fortune teller reading tea leaves.

As someone who always suggests people should listen to experts, I find few acts more deplorable then when someone knowingly uses the genetic fallacy to suggest their expertise in one area means they are somehow more qualified and we should listen to them in a unrelated area.

Being a "game analyst" doesn't mean you should be encouraging people to defer to you as an expert in a patent case. And even if you are a patent lawyer, you shouldn't encourage people to defer to you as an expert in fortune telling.

Not to mention this guys actual comments are just pure editorializing and offer no insight or clarification of the actual issue.

But I guess "Some random dude with no more expertise then any random commenter said something based on zero information" isn't a great headline.

@Solomon_Rambling Someone get this man an award.

Of course Nintendo will win - in real life, bullies always do.

And I am certain to have a definitive opinion about this when this case is closed and finalized.

Right now I have no opinion, and just a bit shocked they are going after this game after many months have pass.

I hope Nintendo wins and shuts that Palworld mess down!

While here I see that some are betting on who will win, there they are possibly even making deals because I see this as something that would not be done seriously, and because as I mentioned before, if Nintendo had its sights on Palworld and Pocket Pair, we would have been talking about this for months and not now and very, very possibly Palworld would be history, as simple as that.

And also, what is the patent infringed in this lawsuit? I ask, because there are too many games of catching and training and creature battles on the market for years and some are almost carbon copies of Pokémon, and as far as I know Nintendo has not sued those games and some are even on their consoles, I mean, what is the point of this lawsuit, adding that it has support from Microsoft and Sony, and this could be detrimental to Nintendo, that is why I doubt that this will lead to anything serious, and that is why I repeat, it smells to me like they are looking for a commercial arrangement.

And in Game Freak's defense, they have nothing to do with the lawsuit, since they are already so busy with the next Pokemon Legend (and other games) that they are willing to waste their time (and reputation for some people) on something that is not relevant.

Some of these comments, man. Nuts. I guess some nintendolife users really think patenting game mechanics is inherently bad & that it should be legal to take a game & copy it completely in everything but name?
These patents aren't setting a "dangerous precedent", like so many of those comments claimed. These patents exist so people can't just use exact mechanics from other games & reap the rewards, this is a huge factor in making your game stand apart from others. Obviously you don't have to be that careful, since it's not copying anyone to make a game in the same genre. For anyone still confused, think of it similarly to plagiarism: anyone can write murder mysteries but if you're copying someone else's work word-for-word, then you're gonna get in legal trouble. Same thing happened to these Palworld people. They didn't copy pokemon games as a whole clearly but they included detailed mechanics that have been put into question if they originated from patented pokemon mechanics. Nintendo did months of research & they're probably gonna win. I look forward to hearing more details & more about how this all turns out.

@RygelXVIII don’t forget everything Microsoft has is built on what it copied from Apple, Nintendo, and Sony.

I don't have an interest in Palworld, probably won't ever play it. This does have me concerned for other games like Coromon, and Nexomon, both are enjoyable games from what I've played (finished both Nexomin games, just started Coromon), I would hate to see them not get potential sequels.

@SilentBluntman I didn’t claim anything about that; patents aren’t about who made something first. They’re granted to whoever managed to get the patent through first. Microsoft has a lot regardless of how valid we feel they are. That’s my point. This will hurt Nintendo because there’s other players out there that can outspend them with libraries of software patents.

@yohn777 Palworld isn’t a copy of a Pokemon game. Please at least inform yourself before spouting opinions

@RygelXVIII "They didn't copy pokemon games as a whole clearly"
Please read comments completely before replying to them before you start spouting incorrect idiocy. But, looking at your other comments, it's a bit late for that.

@sanderev It does depend somewhat on the country. In some countries such patents are harder to go through. But one of the things that set Japan back in the realm of software was its stricter IP protections. And also its far stricter crackdowns on corporate crime and malfeasance. So I don’t really like this. It’s the kind of behavior that stifled startups in Japan

Kinda surprising to know that several people here have no idea that game mechanics have been and will continue to get patented.....

@yohn777 You literally defended game mechanic patents, unironically. You don't get to tell anyone else they're in the wrong.

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